Recently, I interviewed finance wizard and brewery owner, John Brand, for my podcast “The Elements of Being.” Here are his 9 thought-provoking answers to my questions about transitioning from a 15-year career in finance to opening his brewery, Open Outcry, in Chicago. Take a read…It may inspire you to finally leave your career to pursue your dreams.
John Brand: No. I wanted to make beer. If I was going to give up my career in finance that I had put a lot of tremendous amount of time and energy into, and had some good opportunities if I continued it, I was going to give it up for something that I really wanted to do. I homebrewed for 10 years…I just loved the process of making beer. I loved making something with my hands and then sharing it with people and watching them enjoy it. Especially a beverage like beer or alcohol, which is a social lubricant where you can sit down with somebody and share with them. It fosters conversation and connections with people. And that idea of making something like beer and sharing that with my friends, family, and neighbors on the south side of Chicago was the only thing I was focused on. I didn't really think about anything else. The idea of starting a financial services firm or investing futures……I'd never even considered it. I was-if I was going to do it-I was going to go in a different direction. It was going to pursue something that I wanted to do…really had a passion for. And that's what beer was.
John Brand: I was entrenched in that career, and it was a long process to convince myself that it was rational to give it up to start a business-especially a high-risk business like a bar, restaurant, or brewery. The success and failure of bars and restaurants are pretty well documented. It isn’t the most rational decision. It isn’t the most conservative decision to make if you're a somewhat conservative guy like I was. I don't consider myself conservative with risk anymore. This whole experience has changed my relationship with risk and my relationship with money. It wasn't the rational decision to make. I also knew that if I didn't do it I probably would have regret. I can choose a successful career path in corporate America to have financial security and all the things that come along with that, but I didn't want to have that regret of thinking about what would've happened if I would've done it. I started hanging out with people that had done it before. I started reading a lot, too….I was introduced to writers like Tim Ferriss. He started his own business and became an entrepreneur. Ferriss wrote books that dissected the mindset and mentality of people…that entrepreneurship is in their DNA. Being exposed to guys like that started to really shift the perception of risk in my head. It's risky, but you can do this if you're thoughtful about it. So that helped. This took years for me to go through this decision-making process.
John Brand: I think it was maybe in 2012 or 2013 when I started thinking about whether or not I could execute on a vision of opening a brewery. I would come home from work, sit down in front of a computer, and start pounding it out. I would document the vision that I had in my head…I started putting it down on paper. I did this once or twice a week for a year or two. It was cathartic for me because I was getting a little frustrated and disillusioned with the traditional corporate career path. This was an outlet to pretend that I was actually going to open a brewery.
Over time, though, that idea started to become a real plan….real good ideas were documented, flushed out….and a game plan for how to deliver on what a brewery could look like. As the document grew and become more detailed, I had a little bit more confidence in the fact that I do have an idea here, and I do have a path to execute it. I did that for probably two or three years, and it was probably the longest and most well-written business plan that you've ever seen. I had to go through the process of writing it down on paper to convince myself that I could actually do this.
I still hadn't made up my mind that I was going to do it, but I occasionally started looking at listings of commercial properties nearby. And again, not convinced that I was going to do it. When the right property came up, it actually clicked. I had a plan that I had been working on for a couple of years. I had almost the perfect property that the plan sat on top of (which was two blocks away from my house). I had a nice rapport with my wife the whole time and shared what I was thinking. She was supportive of it. I had to make a decision. It was either crap or get off the pot. This happened in late 2015 (after three or four years of writing a business plan). It was the first time I actually had to look at myself and say, “Okay, am I really going to do this or what?” I had done all the previous work for the last couple of years. I knew the economics of the business plan. I knew what it would cost. I knew how I wanted to execute the vision. I knew I wanted the space to work. Since I had done all that work, it gave me the confidence for this first time.
John Brand: I was never so miserable in a traditional corporate career…I never felt so desperate that I had to get out. I wasn't excited to get up and go to work every day, and I wasn't clinging to desperation either. I knew that there was probably a better path out there for me as I got older and developed self-awareness. I was fearful of regret. I didn't want to look back thirty or forty years from now and say, “why didn't I do it?” I think that weighed on me the most. I convinced myself that if I did it..if I took the leap and suck…I just wasn't an entrepreneur. I wasn't somebody that could do it, and I failed. I was comfortable with that, too. That was a real…very real possibility. And if that happened, I also had known that I worked hard enough in my previous life and had enough friends in that industry or that space that I could have called somebody up and gotten a job somewhere back on the streets.
John Brand: I was very fortunate for my former employer. When I told them what I was doing, there was definitely some shock. They questioned me, “You sure you want to do this?” I explained the maturation process that I had gone through over the last couple of years and that I had done my homework. When you give a financial services firm two weeks notice, they get very protective of their information. A lot of times, even if it's a positive ending to that relationship, they still walk you back to your office after the notice, gather up your things, and then walk you out the door. I was fully prepared for that. It was the opposite, though. I was very fortunate. Not only did they support me through the process, they actually allowed me to modify my schedule. I went into a part-time capacity for six months while I bootstrapped the business. Not a lot of people have that sort of support or opportunity that I did, and that certainly helped my transition. It gave me an opportunity to make a little money. I was still paying my mortgage while we were building the brewery….planning the brewery.
John Brand: I learned quickly that part of owning a business is that you need to accept the fact that things go wrong. You have to be comfortable with that. You have to be able to let micro failures roll-off. You can't dwell on them because it’ll distract you from executing the plan and mission. I’m a pretty methodical guy and somewhat of a type-A personality. Control has always been an issue for me in terms of my management style. That was a transition for me…to accept the fact that things won’t always go my way or the way things were planned. As I built out the brewery and worked part-time downtown Chicago, things went wrong. I learned quickly to let the failures go and not dwell. You learn to love to eat crap, right? You need the capacity to eat crap if you're going to start a business.
John Brand: Oh, for sure. Yeah. We were just talking about how I wish I would have realized this earlier. Like you did…you had self-awareness in your twenties, and just did it (starting a personal training business). I didn't. Maybe that was a blessing. While working in companies for about twenty years, I learned the best practices of accounting, planning, budgeting, HR-related issues, how to deal with employees, how to hire and fire people, etc. These are all things that if you pay attention to them, you pick up on how to do it (especially on how to deal with present-day legal issues). If I had started a business in my twenties, I wouldn't have had the benefit of seeing all those things. In some ways this delayed self-awareness and realization that I want to start a business probably are helping me now. Now, if I’m having a dispute with an employee, I know how to navigate that. I know how to document things. I know how to protect myself and mitigate risks. These are all things I learned throughout my career in finance. It also gave me confidence. I’ve seen the inner workings of companies, and now I'm trying to apply all of those best practices into the startup business.
John Brand: I agree with you. I don't know if I'll ever retire either. I always want to do something. I think this idea of retirement…..you're speaking directly to the narrative that we're spoon-fed in this country. You go to school….you learn just enough to be an obedient worker. You work in a career that you don't particularly like or have a passion for with the hopes of one day retiring, living the golden years, and doing whatever the hell it is you want to do. Right. I think that narrative is crap. I think you should find something you want to do and do it. Enjoy doing it…enjoy the journey and all the things that come along with that. The failures…the successes…the distress…the fear.
John Brand: I try to be hands-on with everything in the brewery. I am there in the mornings, sweeping floors with the folks that are opening the place up…wiping tables down, cleaning, mopping. I try to spend an hour or two of that every day. I'm particular, and I want that place to look a certain way…there's a certain level of cleanliness and sanitation that I demand. Then, I'll spend a couple of hours in the office doing paperwork, accounting, responding to emails, dealing with staff issues, HR issues, and payroll issues. I also try to spend an hour or two every day doing project work. I consider project work making incremental improvements to the aesthetics of the building, prepping for the next phase, planning the next project that I want to do. I ask myself, “how can I invest two hours today that will lend itself to incremental improvements to the aesthetics, the service, the food, and the quality of the beer.”
Did you consider other businesses before opening a brewery?
John Brand: No. I wanted to make beer. If I was going to give up my career in finance that I had put a lot of tremendous amount of time and energy into, and had some good opportunities if I continued it, I was going to give it up for something that I really wanted to do. I homebrewed for 10 years…I just loved the process of making beer. I loved making something with my hands and then sharing it with people and watching them enjoy it. Especially a beverage like beer or alcohol, which is a social lubricant where you can sit down with somebody and share with them. It fosters conversation and connections with people. And that idea of making something like beer and sharing that with my friends, family, and neighbors on the south side of Chicago was the only thing I was focused on. I didn't really think about anything else. The idea of starting a financial services firm or investing futures……I'd never even considered it. I was-if I was going to do it-I was going to go in a different direction. It was going to pursue something that I wanted to do…really had a passion for. And that's what beer was.
You mentioned that it took about four or five years before you actually made the jump…and I'm sure there was an internal debate during that time. I want to dig into that a little more to learn about what held you back from making the jump sooner. Were there any doubts or fears that you needed to overcome and, if there were, how you did it?
John Brand: I was entrenched in that career, and it was a long process to convince myself that it was rational to give it up to start a business-especially a high-risk business like a bar, restaurant, or brewery. The success and failure of bars and restaurants are pretty well documented. It isn’t the most rational decision. It isn’t the most conservative decision to make if you're a somewhat conservative guy like I was. I don't consider myself conservative with risk anymore. This whole experience has changed my relationship with risk and my relationship with money. It wasn't the rational decision to make. I also knew that if I didn't do it I probably would have regret. I can choose a successful career path in corporate America to have financial security and all the things that come along with that, but I didn't want to have that regret of thinking about what would've happened if I would've done it. I started hanging out with people that had done it before. I started reading a lot, too….I was introduced to writers like Tim Ferriss. He started his own business and became an entrepreneur. Ferriss wrote books that dissected the mindset and mentality of people…that entrepreneurship is in their DNA. Being exposed to guys like that started to really shift the perception of risk in my head. It's risky, but you can do this if you're thoughtful about it. So that helped. This took years for me to go through this decision-making process.
Can you describe how you officially committed to this decision (whether that was your two-week notice or signing some type of legal document)? At what point did this thought actually become a real jump?
John Brand: I think it was maybe in 2012 or 2013 when I started thinking about whether or not I could execute on a vision of opening a brewery. I would come home from work, sit down in front of a computer, and start pounding it out. I would document the vision that I had in my head…I started putting it down on paper. I did this once or twice a week for a year or two. It was cathartic for me because I was getting a little frustrated and disillusioned with the traditional corporate career path. This was an outlet to pretend that I was actually going to open a brewery.
Over time, though, that idea started to become a real plan….real good ideas were documented, flushed out….and a game plan for how to deliver on what a brewery could look like. As the document grew and become more detailed, I had a little bit more confidence in the fact that I do have an idea here, and I do have a path to execute it. I did that for probably two or three years, and it was probably the longest and most well-written business plan that you've ever seen. I had to go through the process of writing it down on paper to convince myself that I could actually do this.
I still hadn't made up my mind that I was going to do it, but I occasionally started looking at listings of commercial properties nearby. And again, not convinced that I was going to do it. When the right property came up, it actually clicked. I had a plan that I had been working on for a couple of years. I had almost the perfect property that the plan sat on top of (which was two blocks away from my house). I had a nice rapport with my wife the whole time and shared what I was thinking. She was supportive of it. I had to make a decision. It was either crap or get off the pot. This happened in late 2015 (after three or four years of writing a business plan). It was the first time I actually had to look at myself and say, “Okay, am I really going to do this or what?” I had done all the previous work for the last couple of years. I knew the economics of the business plan. I knew what it would cost. I knew how I wanted to execute the vision. I knew I wanted the space to work. Since I had done all that work, it gave me the confidence for this first time.
Some people believe that most transitions extend from reaching a bottom, saying, “This is enough,” and then finally making a jump. It sounds like this is a little different story, right?
John Brand: I was never so miserable in a traditional corporate career…I never felt so desperate that I had to get out. I wasn't excited to get up and go to work every day, and I wasn't clinging to desperation either. I knew that there was probably a better path out there for me as I got older and developed self-awareness. I was fearful of regret. I didn't want to look back thirty or forty years from now and say, “why didn't I do it?” I think that weighed on me the most. I convinced myself that if I did it..if I took the leap and suck…I just wasn't an entrepreneur. I wasn't somebody that could do it, and I failed. I was comfortable with that, too. That was a real…very real possibility. And if that happened, I also had known that I worked hard enough in my previous life and had enough friends in that industry or that space that I could have called somebody up and gotten a job somewhere back on the streets.
It sounds like it was a fairly calculated risk. You still worked for your former firm part-time while opening up the brewery, correct?
John Brand: I was very fortunate for my former employer. When I told them what I was doing, there was definitely some shock. They questioned me, “You sure you want to do this?” I explained the maturation process that I had gone through over the last couple of years and that I had done my homework. When you give a financial services firm two weeks notice, they get very protective of their information. A lot of times, even if it's a positive ending to that relationship, they still walk you back to your office after the notice, gather up your things, and then walk you out the door. I was fully prepared for that. It was the opposite, though. I was very fortunate. Not only did they support me through the process, they actually allowed me to modify my schedule. I went into a part-time capacity for six months while I bootstrapped the business. Not a lot of people have that sort of support or opportunity that I did, and that certainly helped my transition. It gave me an opportunity to make a little money. I was still paying my mortgage while we were building the brewery….planning the brewery.
Let's jump a little more into that transition. I'm sure not everything went smooth. Can you describe any moments of failure that made you question this new path? How did you overcome those moments?
John Brand: I learned quickly that part of owning a business is that you need to accept the fact that things go wrong. You have to be comfortable with that. You have to be able to let micro failures roll-off. You can't dwell on them because it’ll distract you from executing the plan and mission. I’m a pretty methodical guy and somewhat of a type-A personality. Control has always been an issue for me in terms of my management style. That was a transition for me…to accept the fact that things won’t always go my way or the way things were planned. As I built out the brewery and worked part-time downtown Chicago, things went wrong. I learned quickly to let the failures go and not dwell. You learn to love to eat crap, right? You need the capacity to eat crap if you're going to start a business.
Can you identify any specific lessons from the corporate world that made this transition easier?
John Brand: Oh, for sure. Yeah. We were just talking about how I wish I would have realized this earlier. Like you did…you had self-awareness in your twenties, and just did it (starting a personal training business). I didn't. Maybe that was a blessing. While working in companies for about twenty years, I learned the best practices of accounting, planning, budgeting, HR-related issues, how to deal with employees, how to hire and fire people, etc. These are all things that if you pay attention to them, you pick up on how to do it (especially on how to deal with present-day legal issues). If I had started a business in my twenties, I wouldn't have had the benefit of seeing all those things. In some ways this delayed self-awareness and realization that I want to start a business probably are helping me now. Now, if I’m having a dispute with an employee, I know how to navigate that. I know how to document things. I know how to protect myself and mitigate risks. These are all things I learned throughout my career in finance. It also gave me confidence. I’ve seen the inner workings of companies, and now I'm trying to apply all of those best practices into the startup business.
I'm not the type of person that will retire, sit on the front porch, and drink my tea. I always feel that I’ll still be doing “something” when I retire…perhaps creating another business. Some people feel that may be unhealthy, but isn't that what we are….beings that need mental stimulation?
John Brand: I agree with you. I don't know if I'll ever retire either. I always want to do something. I think this idea of retirement…..you're speaking directly to the narrative that we're spoon-fed in this country. You go to school….you learn just enough to be an obedient worker. You work in a career that you don't particularly like or have a passion for with the hopes of one day retiring, living the golden years, and doing whatever the hell it is you want to do. Right. I think that narrative is crap. I think you should find something you want to do and do it. Enjoy doing it…enjoy the journey and all the things that come along with that. The failures…the successes…the distress…the fear.
What are your day-to-day habits (e.g., bookkeeping practices, etc.)?
John Brand: I try to be hands-on with everything in the brewery. I am there in the mornings, sweeping floors with the folks that are opening the place up…wiping tables down, cleaning, mopping. I try to spend an hour or two of that every day. I'm particular, and I want that place to look a certain way…there's a certain level of cleanliness and sanitation that I demand. Then, I'll spend a couple of hours in the office doing paperwork, accounting, responding to emails, dealing with staff issues, HR issues, and payroll issues. I also try to spend an hour or two every day doing project work. I consider project work making incremental improvements to the aesthetics of the building, prepping for the next phase, planning the next project that I want to do. I ask myself, “how can I invest two hours today that will lend itself to incremental improvements to the aesthetics, the service, the food, and the quality of the beer.”
